Saturday, April 29, 2006

Quantifier Quandary

I'm writing this to talk my way through a tricky problem involving Quantifiers, the terms used in Deikto to express the magnitude of some trait or to modify a verb. From the outset, Quantifiers were designed to operate one a zero to five scale. The standard quantifiers were zero, tiny, small, medium, big, and max. However, we have shifted to a bipolar system in which most (but not all) values run from -1.0 to +1.0, with the values representing a kind of percentile distribution -- so that a value of 0.0 indicates the norm, with half of all plausible values above it and half below it, while +1.0 represents the highest plausible value, and -1.0 represents the lowest plausible value.

So what should the Quantifiers be? It now appears that we need many more Quantifiers, and they must be adapted to this probabilistic scale. I'd like to have 11 Quantifiers, but the problem is, English doesn't have that much resolution in its quantifier set. Here's a seven-step scale:

minimum, tiny, small, medium, big, huge, maximum

That's not much resolution. But going to a nine-step scale requires us to resort to some sloppy terms:

minimum, tiny, small, minor, medium, major, big, huge, maximum

It's possible to use compounds to get somewhat better results:

minimum, tiny, small, medium-small, medium, medium large, large, huge, maximum

But taking this all the way to an eleven-step system gets cumbersome:

minimum, super-tiny, tiny, small, medium-small, medium, medium-large, large, huge, super-huge, maximum

Moreover, we get into some issues with the semantic linearity of this scale. Here's how it would look as a table:

-1.0 to -0.9: minimum
-0.9 to -0.7 super-tiny
-0.7 to -0.5 tiny
-0.5 to -0.3 small
-0.3 to -0.1 medium-small
-0.1 to +0.1 medium
+0.1 to +0.3 medium large
+0.3 to +0.5 large
+0.5 to +0.7 huge
+0.7 to +0.9 super-huge
+0.9 to +1.0 maximum

Let me remind you, this system has to work for all variables in the system. Deikto is smart enough to be able to substitute different labels for quantifiers used on each word -- but that makes the job of designing these words even more difficult.

Right now I'm inclined to accept the nine-step system. The eleven-step system seems too clumsy.

Comments?

88 Comments:

Blogger Designer Christian said...

How about. giant/microscopic?.
And how about something like, huge, then huge-er, maximun, maximuner, or maybe huge+ or huge-, or large, largest, huge then hugest, or small then smaller medium (its a medium who is almost small), then medium, then bigger medium. I think that your system seems clusmy because one quantifier shares the same name as another one plus another one that is also shared by another one, change the words a little using bigger "quantifier" smaller and problem solved (i think????), and probably making so that all "bigger" appear only to the right and all smaller appear only to the left so this rule helps to remmber how variables go.

9:21 PM  
Anonymous Joseph Limbaugh said...

My humble suggestions:
How about Mega? Megahuge? Wouldn't this also translate well to other languages? Too Japanese movie monster?
How about Tremendous or Gigantic. These terms seem bigger than Huge to me.
You could also add "Less than" or "More than." Less than medium, for example.
You've probably already thought of these.

12:08 AM  
Blogger Patrick Dugan said...

I think theres an elegance to certian numbers, and that this carries over to the poetics and dynamics of a system. This largely has to do with the way people tend to deal with numbers, rather than any absolute truth about system dynamics, and when you're going for linguistic synchronicity, you definetly want a tight numerology. For this reason, I think you should stick with the five degrees of quantifier, and group it along:

-1.0
-.6
-.2
.2
.6
1.0

Its very pure from my perspective as a writer, design and user. Feel free to disagree, but I think its a clear enough representation that variations in the floats "under the hood" won't throw a player off in effect.

2:23 PM  
Anonymous rafael said...

Well, Chris, if Deikto is able to substitute different labels for the quantifiers used on each word then why worry about naming the quantifiers? I think the only thing you should handle is naming the labels (though, like you said, that's not the easiest task).

I believe this is what Patrick is saying.


In any case, allow me to take a shot at an 11 tiered system:

None
Miniscule
Very Very Small
Very Small
Small
Medium
Large
Very Large
Very Very Large
Immense
Maximum

This, I believe, is very clear (no pun intended) if somewhat quaint. Nevertheless, if the labels are what the user sees, the labels are what should be "pretty" while the quantifiers should be, like the rest of Deikto, straight and to-the-point.

10:39 PM  
Anonymous Bezzy said...

This is probably a bit of a silly idea, adding too much extra complexity to the system but I'll chuck it out and see what happens...

Perhaps if there are only a few quantifiers (~5), but for more detail, you start to talk in relative terms?

You compare its magnitude to other known nouns which are also in the same magnitude range. Say that you're describing a "Shark" in the game. Also, a "Carp", "Dolphin" and a "Car" exist in the world. All of them are in the magnitude "Big".

"The [Shark] is [big]; [bigger than] a [carp]/ [smaller than] a [car]/ [about the same size as] a [dolphin]"

And, these nouns can be chosen at random to compare against - or perhaps you could be smarter about how you select them... ignore the car because it's not in an "animal" category, so it's a "funny" sounding comparison to make.

But, then again, I'm not exactly sure what context you'll use magnitude.

Just some thoughts.

7:09 AM  
Blogger Chris Crawford said...

Interesting suggestions; thanks, everyone. Patrick, the problem with the 5-step system you favor is its low resolution. Suppose that Fred believes Mary's P2Smart to be 0.65, and John believes Mary's P2Smart is 0.78. John's gossip to Fred would be "John tells Fred Mary P2Smart 0.6". Fred would accordinly LOWER his P2Smart for Mary even though John actually thinks her P2Smart is greater than what Fred already believes. This is the kind of problem you get when you have low resolution. You can never make it go away, but you can reduce the magnitude of the problem with greater resolution in your Quantifiers.

Rafael, I especially like your suggestion.

8:35 AM  
Blogger Patrick Dugan said...

I undestand the problem a bit more clearly now, and I think there are two classes of quantifiers we'll have to deal with, each with their own needs for resolution. As you clearly illustrate Chris, p Values need high resolution, as they constitute the data of the main play loop. We'll only need to come up with elaborate naming schemes for each of these then, as well as the secondary traits like health, strength, loquacity, agility, and maybe size is in there as well. For these I'd suggest going with a nine-point system along these values, and I'll throw in word design for Intelligence as an example:

-1.0 to -.85: insentient
-.85 to -.6: mentally challenged
-.6 to -.45: idiotic
-.45 to -.2: stupid
-.2 to .2: competent
.2 to .45: sharp
.45 to .6: smart
.6 to .85: brilliant
.85 to 1.0: genius

This array was fairly painless for me to come up with, and would have been if my vocabulary were only average, so it seems to me the average user could evaluate these terms as having representational weight in the system. You certainly could go to 11 (this one goes to 11!) and get more resolution, but I think users will find such schemes generally strained. A nice feature of this layout is that there is a bell valley toward to middle to statistically one would expect most people to fall into stupid, competent or sharp categories. Of course, its a trade-off between UI elegance and systemic robustness, but I promise you that you can't go to 11 without stretching the english langauge a bit thin. Then consider the difficulites amassed in translating storyworlds to other languages.

As for the other for of quantifier, those related to skill with particular verbs, I whole heartedly encourage you to go with the five degree system. Whether those remain unipolar variables (as I recall from an earlier design doc) or bi-polar, a five point system can be cleanly applied and makes good sense in that those variants have to do with objective effects in the storyworld, instead of subjective issues of perception. The analogy to a pen and paper RPG is most strong here than anywhere else in the engine's design, so it makes to follow the five point skill progression system that worked so well in White Wolf's games and the weapons sytem from AD&D. The difference in float values will be like experience points accumulating, and each shift to another quantifier region will be like a level gain, and players will feel as sense of accomplishment as their character's idiosyncratic ability takes on a greater scope.

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Blogger Pavitra said...

I agree with Patrick Dugan: this seems like it's been solved many times over by tabletop roleplaying systems.

But I especially like bezzy's idea. Relative, rather than absolute, size descriptors. So, for example, if context dictates "medium" to be 5, then 6 would be biggish, but when medium is 8, then 5 is fairly small.

5:22 PM  
Blogger Pavitra said...

I agree with Patrick Dugan: this seems like it's been solved many times over by tabletop roleplaying systems.

But I especially like bezzy's idea. Relative, rather than absolute, size descriptors. So, for example, if context dictates "medium" to be 5, then 6 would be biggish, but when medium is 8, then 5 is fairly small.

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